On Schadenfreude
Dec. 21st, 2022 12:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
livingdebMany people like the word "schadenfreude" because it helps explain that good feeling you get when something bad happens to a bad person. Except I looked it up and it actually means enjoying the misfortune of others, not just people who deserve it. Yikes!
Although wikipedia (read 12/21/22) says that justice is one of the three driving forces behind this emotion (the other two being aggression and rivalry).
I want to talk about just the phenomenon of feeling pleasure at the misfortunes of bad people. After really thinking about it, I've decided I don't actually want them to have misfortunes--I want them to change into better people. I would much rather learn about people escaping their own racism or even just reducing their environmental destruction than learning that bad karma happened to them.
And laughing at their troubles does not actually help them become better people. It just brings us down a little. And it ignores all of their good deeds and divides us from people who admire those.
I do want lies exposed and I do want people who hurt others to be stopped. I am also for them being convicted of their crimes and given appropriate punishments (ideally they repair the damage and pay extra, but whatever is in the law books will have to do). But what I feel when this happens is more like relief than joy.
Which is not to say that I am immune. I do feel bursts of pleasure at this kind of news. And then I remind myself that this isn't really what I want.
And lately, I've even been fantasizing about various types of possible bad news that could happen. I guess it's similar to my feelings about revenge. I oppose it. It doesn't help anyone. Yet it is quite fun to fantasize about. And I think fantasizing about revenge helps us work through our feelings. So long as we don't actually act on the fantasy or encourage anyone else to.
And now I should resist telling you my latest fantasy. Rather than telling you as an illustration of my point.
P.S. The wikipedia article also has this sad quote: "There is no common English term for pleasure at another's happiness." People make do with the made-up term "freudenfreude." Oh, this is me, too. I will, for example, cheer for the other team when they do something awesome. Why get angry, when you can get amazed?
I can't say I'm never envious or jealous, but I then talk myself out of it. I know that I actually like life best when I'm surrounded by people who are better than me. (Except for feeling a little like a social parasite. But hey, people do like being appreciated.) And then I can copy some of their awesomeness and be better myself, too.
Although wikipedia (read 12/21/22) says that justice is one of the three driving forces behind this emotion (the other two being aggression and rivalry).
I want to talk about just the phenomenon of feeling pleasure at the misfortunes of bad people. After really thinking about it, I've decided I don't actually want them to have misfortunes--I want them to change into better people. I would much rather learn about people escaping their own racism or even just reducing their environmental destruction than learning that bad karma happened to them.
And laughing at their troubles does not actually help them become better people. It just brings us down a little. And it ignores all of their good deeds and divides us from people who admire those.
I do want lies exposed and I do want people who hurt others to be stopped. I am also for them being convicted of their crimes and given appropriate punishments (ideally they repair the damage and pay extra, but whatever is in the law books will have to do). But what I feel when this happens is more like relief than joy.
Which is not to say that I am immune. I do feel bursts of pleasure at this kind of news. And then I remind myself that this isn't really what I want.
And lately, I've even been fantasizing about various types of possible bad news that could happen. I guess it's similar to my feelings about revenge. I oppose it. It doesn't help anyone. Yet it is quite fun to fantasize about. And I think fantasizing about revenge helps us work through our feelings. So long as we don't actually act on the fantasy or encourage anyone else to.
And now I should resist telling you my latest fantasy. Rather than telling you as an illustration of my point.
P.S. The wikipedia article also has this sad quote: "There is no common English term for pleasure at another's happiness." People make do with the made-up term "freudenfreude." Oh, this is me, too. I will, for example, cheer for the other team when they do something awesome. Why get angry, when you can get amazed?
I can't say I'm never envious or jealous, but I then talk myself out of it. I know that I actually like life best when I'm surrounded by people who are better than me. (Except for feeling a little like a social parasite. But hey, people do like being appreciated.) And then I can copy some of their awesomeness and be better myself, too.
no subject
on 2022-12-21 09:36 pm (UTC)Also, me. I try to make the effort to be happy for someone else’s happiness. I also repeat logical reasons why I can be envious but I shouldn’t be jealous.
no subject
on 2022-12-22 12:38 am (UTC)You're reminding me of an idea I think I got from my mom where I try to think of good reasons for people to be driving in the horrible ways they do. Like for really erratic, clueless driving, there could be bees in the car with a deathly allergic driver.
I had to look up compersion. It looks like when you're happy for a loved one (including your own partner?) to be in good romantic relationships. So that definition is a bit narrow for me.
no subject
on 2022-12-22 11:30 am (UTC)The only other term I really use besides compersion is “reflected joy.” But that’s got less agency/ownership to it.
no subject
on 2022-12-23 02:32 am (UTC)I'm not that nice
on 2022-12-22 09:33 pm (UTC)You are obviously a better person than me. I enjoy when Karma hits a person who really deserves it. For example, I am anxiously waiting for former orange prez to face accountability. Now, this being said, I don't want bad things to happen to people. I just think that people need to be responsible for their actions. I also have a cascading level of schadenfreude based on how bad I think the person is and how evil the deed. For example, if a common guy driving a beat up old car gets a flat tire, I'm not feeling any joy (probably sorrow). However, if some guy punches grandma in the face and steals her purse, then his tire blows out while escaping (and gets apprehended) then I feel some pleasure. So as with most issues, schadenfreude has a lot of grey areas.
JayWilliams
Re: I'm not that nice
on 2022-12-23 02:41 am (UTC)Me, too, on the orange-guy accountability. I keep reading articles about how he's facing accountability, yet nothing has actually happened yet. Now his crimes are on more official documents. I've learned nothing new. Except that the IRS is supposed to pay closer-than-usual attention to presidential tax returns. And I already know that business ownership is a red-flag for getting audited, even businesses involving much less money.
It sounds like you only have the karma-based schadenfreude like I do. What you do with it may be a bit more gleeful and public than what I want to do with mine.